Abortion: The Unlikely Wrench in Healthcare
While there have been three filibuster threats made so far regarding the “public option” aspect of healthcare legislation as the process moves to the Senate (Oops! Per TheHill, now Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont — like Lieberman, another Independent — is fighting for a stronger public option), abortion has now stepped up to become the current lightning rod on both sides of the political spectrum.
As OpenCongress explains:
The real news is the Stupak abortion amendment that was tacked onto the bill by conservative Democrats to block anyone using government subsidies to buy insurance from buying a plan that covers abortions, even if the abortion coverage is paid for completely with private premiums. Pro-choice activists are calling it a monumental setback for abortion access. …
The Stupak amendment’s best chance for inclusion in the Senate bill is for it to be added to the merged bill that will be brought to the floor by Senate Democratic leaders for debate. If it were presented as a floor amendment, it would be filibustered by the Democrats and would require 20 Democrats to break from their party and vote with the Republicans to get it passed. There almost certainly are not 20 Democrats in the Senate who support amendment. If it’s included in the underlying bill, it likely would not cause any liberal Democrats to vote “no” on passing the whole bill. It didn’t lose any Democratic votes for the bill in the House.
Despite all the signs that the Stupak amendment will be included in the health care bills that pass both the Senate and the House bill, there are also signs that it could be stripped in the final blended bill. House chief deputy whip Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz [D, FL-20] said today that she was “confident” it would be taken out by the conference committee. The final blended version that is produced by the conference committee will need to be approved once again by both the Senate and the House.
Here’s Ms. Wasserman-Schultz:
Oh, but it gets even more interesting. Via WhoRunsGov, 41 pro-choice Democrats have apparently signed on to a letter vowing to vote “no” on a bill that contains the amending language, enough votes to kill the legislation:
As Members of Congress we believe that women should have access to a full range of reproductive health care. Health care reform must not be misused as an opportunity to restrict women’s access to reproductive health services.
The Stupak-Pitts amendment to H.R. 3962, The Affordable Healthcare for America Act, represents an unprecedented and unacceptable restriction on women’s ability to access the full range of reproductive health services to which they are lawfully entitled. We will not vote for a conference report that contains language that restricts women’s right to choose any further than current law. [emphasis added; actual signatures still being garnered]
To top it off, HotAir.com reports that not only is the President hinting that the amendment will have to go, but Planned Parenthood President Cecile Richards proclaims that she has “great faith in the leader [Speaker Pelosi]:”
However, as FrontloadingHQ reports, when push comes to shove, there may not be too many “passes” left out of the caucus to get the bill through without making a faction very disgruntled:
Knowing that it had the votes, the Democratic leadership allocated its passes to freshmen, those in Republican leaning districts or a combination of the two. Could the leadership have run up the score?* Sure, but it likely would have cost them. They’d either have to water the bill down now or likely watch as Democrats in close or Republican-leaning districts lose in 2010. As I see it, that’s not a winning strategy. If you’ve got — as a majority party — some votes to spare, you have some wiggle room and an opportunity to provide some cover for at most 40 of your more electorally vulnerable members. On a high salience issue like health care reform, why not use those passes?
Well, Pelosi, Hoyer and the others among the Democratic leadership did. But they didn’t use them all (by design, some have speculated — FHQ agrees). They only used 39 (and actually ended up having two to spare because of Joseph Cao’s late defection from the right side of the aisle). So sure, Democrats can be upset that they lost 39 votes, or they could be happy that the leadership didn’t have to use their full allotment of passes and gave cover to some of their members at the same time.
What’s wrong with that?
*Winning 218-217 is the same as winning 258-177: the bill passes. A wider margin would not have affected anything in the Senate. It would have been/will be close in the upper chamber regardless.
There is nothing wrong with this play at all, for the moment. However, I think we all know that the House is going to have to vote on the bill at least one more time, and anyone who knows anything about politics knows that “political capital” has to be collected before it can be spent.
So, if the Speaker has just spent the vast majority of her capital to get a basic vote out of the House, from whence will the next round of willingness come?
-Phil
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Photo courtesy OpenCongress
Problem with Tort Reform is nobody actually addresses this.
Let’s give a scenario where a insurance company has the following.
Two 4-year-old children has cancer. The insurance company, despite knowing that they should cover this, decides that it’s cheaper to just pay off the lawsuit that’s coming, rather than cover the procedure. The parents don’t have the financial resources to cover it on their own, so they delay treatment. As a result, the 2 4-year-old girls die.
Now, the lawsuit has very low actual damages. A human life has no actual cost in a court of law, and since there are no damages such as lost wages (4-year-olds do not work), or anything along those lines, the actual damages are actually quite small.
So, what’s preventing the insurance company from doing this? This is the reason that I’m not supporting Tort Reform. Because once that happens, more and more situations like that will happen.
Dave S says:
November 10, 2009 at 9:29 pm
*It’s not just health care that is the issue. Its the non transparency of this whole administration*
Thank you for being honest. it’s the whole Republican strategy: “it’s not about (insert anything Obama wants to do), it’s about disrupting anything Obama tries to do”. If your Republican friends don’t want to demonstrate leadership, only foot-dragging to try to make Obama look bad, please get out of the way. 46 million Americans without health insurance don’t give a cr@p about their petty political games. Like Orrin Hatch said, the real reason for trying to obstruct health care legislation is that once it passes, people will be so grateful to the Democrats for getting it done, they will keep them in power for generations.
Again, Observer, well stated. You said what I wanted to put into words earlier today. The insurance industry’s profits are not what people think they are. They are much lower, but the MSM and and the cronies in Washington they work for would like you to believe otherwise. So many people have their heads in the sand, they should be sprouting new branches from their butt!
It’s not just health care that is the issue. Its the non transparency of this whole administration whose goal is to push and pass every pet project they have wanted in recent history but couldnt till they gained complete control in Washington. If our founders could speak to us now, they couldn’t because they would be crying. Crying because we have trashed everything they tried to give us in the constitution. All of Washington needs to change their ways before its too late, and it’s getting closer. You know, I was never really interested in politics but something triggered me this last election and just before. I saw something that I just couldn’t put my finger on but it didn’t set right. Well, I found out sooner rather than later what it was. It was this administration’s agenda to totally dis the American people who sent them there to do our work – yes, OUR WORK, NOT theirs! They wanted to pass Hell or High water any and every bill that they had stashed and couldn’t pass previously. At no time in my life have I seen Americans more upset and speaking their normally silent voices than I do now. People of all races, ages, income levels are up in arms about how things are being done in Washington, but their cries are falling on deaf ears. It doesn’t matter which party you belong to, we have lost our way and need to get back to the way the constitution was designed. If we don’t start and soon, we will come to a point of which I fear may be no return. I am not a doomsday person, but my simplistic self sees what is happening to us here and around the world. We have lost credibility and respect with other nations because of our apology tours. We have backed down on protecting some other nations who needed our support, all in the name of ‘world peace’. If we do not stand strong, we will fall weak. Sory I got off topic on this rant, but damnit, I am getting tired of watching us go farther and farther down the tubes each day. Now, my rant is over. Back to your regularly scheduled blog…
What a bunch of mean, vindictive “punishers”. This unrealistic group here would have you believe that the “new” system will be a reconstituted, by fiat, group of Mother Theresas. Even she depended upon those whose, yes, profits, were shared. You must have your head buried in the quasi-speak of the bureaucrateze of this bill because you certainly are laboring under great error and misunderstanding – to be kind. IOW, you don’t know what the h… you’re talking about.
Your real “profit makers” are just those imperial ones of congress who consider themselves as royalty, unanswerable to those who pay their salaries, and who enter their system with far less than they leave it with. Take your lectures there – they’re the ones arranging everything for their own benefit.
The industry “Health Care Plans” (includes Humana, Aetna, WellPoint, Magellan, etc.) ranks #86 by profit margin at only 3.3%.
Four health insurance companies (Molina, Health Net, Coventry, and Universal American) have profit margins below 1% for the most recent quarter, and another four (Humana, Magellan, WellCare and Centene) have profit margins between 1 and 2 percent.
(AHIP), the industry’s trade association representing 1,300 members (how could that be a monopoly?), recently reported that annual health insurance premiums averaged $2,985 for individual coverage and $6,328 for family plans in 2009. Using the industry average profit margin of 3.3% means that insurance companies make less than $100 per policy in profits for individual coverage, and a little more than $200 in profits for each family policy. Doesn’t seem too “excessive” or an indication of monopoly power, does it?
Alternatively, even if we could strip away 100% of the health insurance profits, it would only result in about $100-200 of annual savings for consumers of health insurance. Is that what we could expect then from a government-sponsored “public option” that wasn’t “profit-driven” – annual savings of only $100-200
And the waste and fraud of the greedy government crowd will far outweigh any normal profits by the industry.
You’re very cold and unfeeling people to cold-shoulder the revelation of Obama’s Antichrist-Jewish link.
When the truth is revealed you must pounce on it and get with the bandwagon straight away, says the Bible.
I’ve given the links on this forum to these racist fake-Jews:
http://www.therightsideoflife.com/?p=7515#comments
If you people think u’ve got more important things to do than this then i can’t help u.
U’ll take Obama with you and go to the lake of sulfur and brimstone.
Don’t say I didn’t tell you, he’s Jewish and insults Jews just as the Bible announces.
Turn away mad people.
I told you, now it’s in the hands of people who will spread this. This is a BIG TRUTH.
It’s troubling that no one has chosen to address the Jewish PROBLEM with Obama.
Is this the ten-ton gorilla in the room, no one wants to talk about ?
I’ve talked about many things on this forum from trivial to very serious, like this one, the fact that Obama has not distant Jewish family, but his very closest-to-kin.
If someone had not noticed – Obama – is the world’s most important man. So just sweeping this aside as an issue which is better not to be discussed, well that’s just mad if not suicidal.
This man has the atomic power to destroy YOUR LIFE 1000 times over… and you’re not interested in the religion and faith of the man who has that total power over you ?
The silence welcoming these facts and the links I’ve provided, borders on madness, and reminds me of the film “The Silence of the Lambs”.
Are you giving up your very life without a whimper, a murmur or a fight, like lambs when slaughtered ?
I’m not ranting, I’m telling you all first that Obama’s own brother is a pure-blood Jew. I’ve sent the link to oilforimmigration’s website already and all have seen it.
I’m telling you secondly that his cousin Capers Funnye, perfectly matches the prophecy of “Jews” or Jews-claiming-to-be, who insult Israel and Jews, and by saying openly with no shame: “All White Jews are not Jews, only Blacks are True Jews”. Being the Antichrist and associating with this kind of low-down scum which his cousin is, thus Obama is what the Bible said, “insulting to Jews”
Yes, an insult to Jews. It’s Antisemitism carried to unheard-of heights, worse than Hitler.
Hitler never denied Jews their Jewishness.
Imagine! Obama’s Team will come at night and eviscerate you, leaving your head reduced in a jar, like Pygmie warriors. Freaking Voodoo !
If that Antisemitism of Black Nationalism is not enough horror, well relax, there’s MORE ! The Black Nationalists also think Islam and Christianity is all fake because only blacks are the true believers and descendants of the prophets. They’re here to come and find YOU !
Maybe I should be more clear: they think Blacks are the ruling race and Whites, Arabs and Chinese, Indians, Russians etc… are the slave-races.
It’s all very simple when it’s not made too complicated and we see it in black and white. DUH !
This requires some good thinking. And also connecting the dots from heaven of 666 777 9, the Marks of Obama’s money shoving on us, in order to shut us up. Don’t take his money.
I’ve been clear in this post and still I don’t think people are using their heads. People are blind. Wake up, this is your asses on the line here !
Don’t look at the Antichrist ! Just bust him.
“siseduermapierda says:
November 10, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Dave S says:
November 10, 2009 at 2:26 pm
I answered your question at 2:18PM, which proves you don’t really read people’s answers.”
Oh, but I do, and no you really didn’t.
Hey ’sis’, give me a break!!!
siseduermapierda says:
November 10, 2009 at 5:56 pm
“Health insurance should be not for profit. Hospitals should be not for profit”
How do you expect for hospitals to grow and keep modernized??? The government will build it and they will come??? LMAO ROFL!!!
Hey ’sis, no need to get ’snarky’
Observer says:
November 10, 2009 at 5:10 pm
*I’m assuming that you have read the bill yourself? *
Yes, I have. And I fail to understand what you schmoes are so afraid of. The only ones who should be afraid are the insurance corporations making 30+% profits off the misery of others. In order to compete with a govt entity with 3% overhead, the insurance companies are going to have to cut their profits. Starting with the likes of the CEO of Cigna who made $150 million last year and lives in a $25 million house while he denies health coverage to people who paid his salary for years with their premiums. Why do you schmoes identify with these crooks?
Health insurance should be not for profit. Hospitals should be not for profit.
Dave S says:
November 10, 2009 at 2:26 pm
I answered your question at 2:18PM, which proves you don’t really read people’s answers.
Want to make this easy?
Let everyone who wants to, without regard to age, buy into Medicare.
Make premiums based upon a sliding scale so that no one pays more in premiums than 15% of their taxable income, with out of pocket expenses in total no more than 15% of their gross income.
Medicare coverage is basic, but it would cover everybody.
It would give the insurance companies competition enough so that they would have to keep premiums low as they could in order to stay in business.
Medicare wouldn’t become swamped because no respectable Republican would choose to be on it, right? I mean, they would all be glad to overpay the insurance companies out of principle, right?
This is necessary (health care reform) and it is going nto get done!
You want to make healthcare affordable for everyone?
Send all the illegals back over the border where they belong.
Observer says:
November 10, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Private insurance companies won’t be run out of business because they are not selling a product. That is what you fail to realize.
You must have flunked econ 101. Companies will not be able to afford what the Gov. mandates they provide in insurance and therefore, in order not to be fined big bucks they will opt out for the public option (forced to by Gov. conditions). It’s written in big bold letters for all with any experience (that leaves out the ivory tower types and those lifers in congress), and obviously too it would appear, yourself, to recognize.
__________________________________________________________________
Actually I did well in econ. I also know that the profit margin for the insurance companies are obscene. Similar to that of the oil companies. Anytime you have a monopoly, you make money. The insurance companies will still be able to make a profit. Their problem is that they won’t be able to just raise rates because they will be forced to remain competitive with the public option. And uninsured people cannot get any type of preventative medicine, so how is what they have now better? Even if they do visit a hospital and don’t have insurance, the hospital does everything within its power to get them out of there as quickly as possible. And now we still don’t always see a doctor. For instance I was in the hospital last year for 3 days with an irregular heartbeat and the closest I got to my doctor was a call on the phone to tell me what my diagnosis was. And that was because I was tired of the run around by the nurses and PA’s. And I have really good insurance. So now we have no guarantees either. So how can that be a good thing?
I recognize that it is not a perfect plan. So the same challenge observer, what would you propose?
Dave S says:
November 10, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Black Lion:
1. Keep it at the state level.
2. Apply tort reform.
3. Fix the brroken parts piece by piece. You don’t throw away a bicycle because of a flat tire…
4. I am not an expert by any means, but I do see were even a little common sense would help here. I don’t care who has been in charge in the past, when a good idea is started, it ends up being a travesty because of all the pork that gets added so consitiuents will back the bill. This has got to stop now! There needs to be a law against adding anything not directly related to a bill as an amendment. This probably will not happen in your or my lifetime, unfortunately.
5. Stop the greed!!! Too few at the top want what all of the rest of us need.
I am sure there is much more that could be added as well. I don’t have all the answers, but I am worried how this has got out of hand and where it will lead us.
___________________________________________________________________
Dave, I can respect that. You at least are a reasonable person. By that you admit that there is some reform needed. Some that don’t want this bill to pass are happy with the status quo.
The state level argument is OK only if there are uniform requirements. If each state gets to decide, then you will have 50 different plans.
Tort reform. I can see where that would be necessary. However there needs to be a penalty for medical practiconers that make mistakes.
Fixing the broken parts piece by piece is a great idea. However we all know that the insurance companies will never allow themselves to be forced to not drop someone that may become too expensive nor will they have any incentive to keep pricing reasonable. This may never have any sort of perfect solution.
I agree with you regarding the pork. Politicans, no matter what side of the spectrum they are, like to fatten themselves up. It would be great if we can stop this but I seriously doubt it. The same with the greed.
I think we all know that the current system needs reform. The question is how do we do it. Unless you will require that insurance companies cannot drop someone that has been paying just because they have become too expensive or refuse coverage, I don’t know how we can reform the process without some sort of option for these people. If we can get that problem solved, then the rest of the issue would fall into place.
Private insurance companies won’t be run out of business because they are not selling a product. That is what you fail to realize.
You must have flunked econ 101. Companies will not be able to afford what the Gov. mandates they provide in insurance and therefore, in order not to be fined big bucks they will opt out for the public option (forced to by Gov. conditions). It’s written in big bold letters for all with any experience (that leaves out the ivory tower types and those lifers in congress), and obviously too it would appear, yourself, to recognize.
As opposed to what those who have their insurance rescinded when they get sick have to bear. Oh puleez! Such dramatics. Read the bill. Only a fool would have bought into the Palin-style dramatics about seniors being “left to die”. Foolishness. Read the bill.
I’m assuming that you have read the bill yourself? Obviously then you give witness to being incapable of rational discernment. (and here’s your bill’s explicit wording – “and such sums that may be deemed necessary” – ha!) What those who have no insurance today receive in health care is far better than what everyone will receive in this bill. They are seen by the best doctors in the world … it is mandated by law and the rest pay for it. In this bill everyone will receive less care. It will be rationed due to the very numbers of doctors available for service. Today you see an actual doctor. With this you will be triaged by physician assistants or nurses and assigned to a further waiting period. Obviously you have never lived under a gov. run health care system. Your pied piper leader has already advised a woman who today received specialized care for an elderly mother which gave her to her family for years more, still living (and he actually had the coldness of heart to say this to her face) to try a pain pill instead of living the life she could still enjoy – based purely on arbitrary age numbers. Now that’s a sickness that no physician can heal. It’s apparently beyond help. With this bill, even the idea of it, has come the testimony of medical students who are deciding to opt for only specialties that gov. may deem more necessary for payment. And physicians will get out all together (which a large number has already decided) due to being placed under some bureaucrat’s oversight with the power to penalize and ration and mandate numbers of patients seen, etc. They will be at even greater danger of greedy lawyers – friends of the state. That’s your world of “compassion”, eh!! Numbers only – lined up and given only rationed care. And even that type of care cannot be realized without putting more people out of work to try and pay for it (including all of the extra, in the way, bureaucrats on the gov. dole). Seek out those with real on the ground experience of such a health system disaster … not the privileged who will remain untouched and those with no real world experience like your pied piper leader. He can’t even get a regular flu season organized … and this even AFTER he declared it to be a national emergency. Duuuh!! As well as after only a short period of time under his reign having another terrorist act happen on American soil. Can’t blame that on a previous record of 7 years of thwarting additional attacks. Somehow he wasn’t able to talk the terrorist out of bloody carnage against our own unarmed. And that happened in a gun controlled atmosphere, btw – except for the person who killed, not the guns. Again, stupid, sick “leaders” who won’t serve the 54% telling them they want no “healthcare” bill. Deliberate dismantling of a great system – only scarred by those Frank/Dodd idiot types who, again, mandated private sector to act in ways they never would have otherwise. They should be in prison along with Rangle, and other high ranking tax frauds who’ve, unlike the average citizen, been rewarded for crimes along with thugs at polling places. That’s YOUR chosen leadership at work. That’s your definition of “compassion”….a system ripe for fraud and waste as history clearly has demonstrated. You grow too soon old and too late smart I would say.
Black Lion:
1. Keep it at the state level.
2. Apply tort reform.
3. Fix the brroken parts piece by piece. You don’t throw away a bicycle because of a flat tire…
4. I am not an expert by any means, but I do see were even a little common sense would help here. I don’t care who has been in charge in the past, when a good idea is started, it ends up being a travesty because of all the pork that gets added so consitiuents will back the bill. This has got to stop now! There needs to be a law against adding anything not directly related to a bill as an amendment. This probably will not happen in your or my lifetime, unfortunately.
5. Stop the greed!!! Too few at the top want what all of the rest of us need.
I am sure there is much more that could be added as well. I don’t have all the answers, but I am worried how this has got out of hand and where it will lead us.
Dave S says:
November 10, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Black Lion says:
November 10, 2009 at 3:16 pm
“We should embrace regulation instead of allowing big business to be in charge.”
___________________________________________________________________
So Dave, do you think that we should keep what we have currently? A system where you can pay for years but the minute they deem you too costly you can be dropped? A system that every insurance company can decline to cover you? Or if you run a small business, maybe 15 or less employees insurance is too costly? So what about those Americans? Do we just tell them “too bad”? If you have had someone close to you be refused coverage I am sure you would think differently. Especially when the person has paid for over 20 years. What is your solution?
A little something I received this morning…
———————————————
Obamacare Endorsements: What the Bribe Was
Sunday, November 8, 2009 10:39 AM
By: Dick Morris & Eileen McGann
As the suicidal Democratic congressmen proceed to rubber-stamp the Obama healthcare reform despite the drubbing their party took in the ‘09 elections, the president trotted out the endorsements of the AMA and the AARP to stimulate support. But these – and the other endorsements – his package has received are all bought and paid for.
Here are the deals:
The American Medical Association (AMA) was facing a 21 percent cut in physicians’ reimbursements under the current law. Obama promised to kill the cut if they backed his bill. The cuts are the fruit of a law requiring annual 5 percent to 6 percent reductions in doctor reimbursements for treating Medicare patients. Bravely, each year Congress has rolled the cuts over, suspending them but not repealing them. So each year, the accumulated cuts threaten doctors. By now, they have risen to 21 percent. With this blackmail leverage, Obama compelled the AMA to support his bill…or else!
The AARP got a financial windfall in return for its support of the healthcare bill. Over the past decade, the AARP has morphed from an advocacy group to an insurance company (through its subsidiary company). It is one of the main suppliers of Medi-gap insurance, a high-cost, privately purchased coverage that picks up where Medicare leaves off. But President Bush-43 passed the Medicare Advantage program, which offered a subsidized, lower-cost alternative to Medi-gap. Under Medicare Advantage, the elderly get all the extra coverage they need plus coordinated, well-managed care, usually by the same physician. So more than 10 million seniors went with Medicare Advantage, cutting into AARP Medi-gap revenues.
Presto! Obama solved their problem. He eliminates subsidies for Medicare Advantage. The elderly will have to pay more for coverage under Medigap, but the AARP — which supposedly represents them — will make more money. (If this galls you, join the American Seniors Association, the alternative group; contact sbarton@americanseniors.org. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it .)
The drug industry backed ObamaCare and, in return, got a 10-year limit of $80 billion on cuts in prescription drug costs. (A drop in the bucket of their almost $3 trillion projected cost over the next decade.) They also got administration assurances that it will continue to bar lower-cost Canadian drugs from coming into the U.S. All it had to do was put its formidable advertising budget at the disposal of the administration.
Insurance companies got access to 40 million potential new customers. But when the Senate Finance Committee lowered the fine that would be imposed on those who don’t buy insurance from $3,500 to $1,500, the insurance companies jumped ship and now oppose the bill, albeit for the worst of motives.
The only industry that refused to knuckle under was the medical device makers. They stood for principle and wouldn’t go along with Obama’s blackmail. So the Senate Finance Committee retaliated by imposing a tax on medical devices such as automated wheelchairs, pacemakers, arterial stents, prosthetic limbs, artificial knees and hips and other necessary accoutrements of healthcare.
So these endorsements are not freely given, but bought and paid for by an administration that is intent on passing its program at any cost.
© 2009 Dick Morris & Eileen McGann
Black Lion says:
November 10, 2009 at 3:16 pm
“We should embrace regulation instead of allowing big business to be in charge.”
But that is EXACTLY what the big government is doing. Acting like a big business! Car company and bank bailouts and now part ownership of those businesses come immediately to mind…
The federal government should not have anything to do with stuff like this. It should be the states authority. Lets go back to the constitution again and see that it says that only powers not granted to the states are given to the government. Government is getting too big and just like any company that gets too big, there is waste, fraud, mismanagement, too many levels of beauacracy (sp) and the end result is that the very people they were trying to help get left in the dust. There are not too many things that the federal government has done that has gone well over time. It usually ends up being a boondogle and financial handicap on the taxpayer. Mark my words, if this atrocity passes, we will see major financial failures little and big. And what happens down the road when we find that “gee, maybe this wasn’t such a good idea” and it’s too late to back out. We’re screwed big time. The system is messed up now, but it can be fixed parts at a time, not by replacing the whole darned thing! We simply can not aford to implement this, either financially or otherwise. Only the ones who are in bed with government or the very rich that can afford to pay for the overhead will not have to worry. Unfortunately, I am not in that crowd. – My personal opinion -.
Dave S says:
November 10, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Hey ’sis’, it won’b be long before the feds run the private insurance companies out of business after low balling them. Guess who that leaves??? Hmmmm???? The same people who screwed everything else up.
“*BTW, why didn’t the House bill require Congress to have and use the same health plan the rest of us are being forced to??? *”
___________________________________________________________________
And we have done so well with big business running things in the past, right? Private insurance companies won’t be run out of business because they are not selling a product. That is what you fail to realize. They are just controlling access to medicine. For everything that you claim that governmental control has “screwed up”, unchecked big business has done worse.
Secondly no one is being forced to have a health plan. Just by your wording we can all see that you are not familar with what the plan is all about. You are just following the same “talking points”. We don’t know if Congress will use the public option because they are covered, just like a lot of Americans. But if they were no longer covered then they would have an option to get coverage. However you also probably believe that most people are against any type of public option or medical reform. The latest polls have shown us the following….
US: Health Care (CNN 10/30-11/1)
Now thinking specifically about the health insurance plans available to most Americans, would you favor or oppose creating a public health insurance option administered by the federal government that would compete with plans offered by private health insurance companies?
55% Favor, 44% Oppose
And:
US: National Survey (Ipsos 10/29-11/1)
Creation of a public entity to directly compete with existing health insurance companies.
51% Favor, 43% Oppose
In addition reform and the public option is being endorsed by groups like the AMA and the American Cancer Society Cancer Action Network (ACS CAN). It is a good thing that these companies did not believe in the fear mongering about “death panels” for the elderly and the seriously sick….
AMA…
“Dr. J. James Rohack, president of the AMA, said the bill was not perfect but was consistent with the group’s principles for healthcare reform in expanding medical coverage to the uninsured. The group urged passage of the healthcare overhaul in the House along with passage of another bill that would prevent deep cuts in payments to physicians under the Medicare program for the elderly.”
American Cancer Society Cancer Action Network (ACS CAN) on their support:
“The House bill takes a number of steps to improve health care for cancer patients and their families by refocusing the system to emphasize prevention, ending the practice of denying coverage because of pre-existing conditions, limiting the cost burden on families by providing care that covers more and costs less and emphasizing patients’ quality of life.”
http://www.speaker.gov/newsroom/reports?id=0263
So your small percentage of people is actually a majority of Americans that want to see reform and what to see that self employed people and people that insurance companies refuse to cover have insurance available to them.
Dave S says:
November 10, 2009 at 1:10 pm
The Republicans offered their own version of a health care plan – only 244 or so pages, that had no fluff, adressed only the issues at hand, and did not grant any favoars for anyone (pork). We were also shut out of any closed door meetings while the final changes were made. So much for trying to be bi-partisan. I don’t believe for a minute that the Dems have ever wanted to include us in anything. They just want to push their long awaited agenda through at all costs. BTW, why didn’t the House bill require Congress to have and use the same health plan the rest of us are being forced to??? Because it is crap, that’s why!
____________________________________________________________________
Dave, you are kidding about the so called GOP bill, right? It was a joke. You are correct about one thing. I was about 230 pages or so that had no fluff, but it had nothing to help people. It only helped the insurance companies. The following article addresses the so called plan…
From the article…
“But the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office found an odd feature in the 230-page bill: Coverage would be more expensive for older people and folks who are sick. And it would not bar insurers from excluding preexisting conditions.”
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2009/11/06/2009-11-06_on_sick_list_elderly_and_the_ill_pay_more_under_gop_health_care_reform_bill.html
You are right, that is a great plan. If you work for Blue Cross/Blue Shield or Aetna.
Another take on the GOP plan….
“House Republican leaders have produced their own health care reform bill. Here is the first thing you need to know: It would do almost nothing to reduce the scandalously high number of Americans who have no insurance. And it makes only a token stab at slowing the relentlessly rising costs of medical care.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/06/opinion/06fri1.html?_r=1&8dpc
Maybe if the GOP had been serious about addressing the problems with health insurance instead of protecting the insurance companes, then a true bipartisan effort could have been made. Think about it. The insurance companies are just brokers. They have no direct control over the doctors or the hospitals, so why do we allow them to control the process? Either way the insurance companies don’t want the “public option” because they don’t want competition, which would force them to not drop people for no reason and prevent them from raising rates when they want. We should embrace regulation instead of allowing big business to be in charge.
Hey ’sis’, it won’b be long before the feds run the private insurance companies out of business after low balling them. Guess who that leaves??? Hmmmm???? The same people who screwed everything else up.
“*BTW, why didn’t the House bill require Congress to have and use the same health plan the rest of us are being forced to??? *”
I see you never answered the question posed to you…
thats because if it smells like crap, looks like crap and tastes like crap, it must be crap.
I don’t see why you want to see them spend trillons on covering a small percentage of people. Some of which dont want to be covered anyway. We will agree to disagree.
Dave S says:
November 10, 2009 at 1:10 pm
*only 244 or so pages*
244 page of nothing. When the CBO scored it, it saved $60 billion over 10 years and in 2019, instead of 46 million people being uninsured, there would 57 million. The bill the Republicans proposed was an embarrassment. It had nothing in it but litigation reform. That tells you how pathetic the Republican party has become that those 244 pages was the best they could propose in 11 months.
*BTW, why didn’t the House bill require Congress to have and use the same health plan the rest of us are being forced to??? *
If you think the “rest of us” are being “forced” to a particular health plan, you don’t even understand the simplest basics of what is in the bill. The bill doesn’t “force” anyone to do anything other than have health insurance. If your employer provides health insurance, you don’t have to anything different. If you are on Medicare, you don’t have to anything different. If you buy your own health insurance and you like the coverage you have, you don’t have to do anything different. But if you don’t have health insurance, you must buy it and one of your options is to buy insurance through an exchange that offers coverage from various insurers, one of whom is the government. You would know this if you read even the summary of the bill.
Observer says:
November 10, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Have you no compassion for those who need more time to be helped in understanding what will be theirs to bear if this abomination is passed *
As opposed to what those who have their insurance rescinded when they get sick have to bear. Oh puleez! Such dramatics. Read the bill. Only a fool would have bought into the Palin-style dramatics about seniors being “left to die”. Foolishness. Read the bill.
Observer, well stated!
By making such arguments, you demonstrate your ignorance of the procedures by which ALL legislation is developed and passed in this country. The problem for most of you is this is the first time in your lives you ever paid attention to a bill in the Congress and you never watched the process before.
You’re nothing but a know it all, confident in lecturing people about what you know nothing. This is a monstrosity of a bill like never before presented and rushed through, tinkering and messing without acknowledging the real concerns of the people who have been relentless in their contacts to their so-called representatives, and paying off the last hoped for vote to even keep it alive. Those who can afford the time within this rush to try to keep up with what is being slipped in are trying to help the majority of those who go without understanding of something that has never been tried before. Representatives are there to clearly inform and answer to the public, especially when it comes to such an all encompassing legislated grab of power over this same public. Instead they hide in rooms, decide just who may be involved in the process, and force their will upon the majority with imposed time restrictions for full public digestion. You’re the one who has not been paying attention to what has been done by grassroots movements in every serious attempt at greater legislation. Maybe some day you can wake up too to the evil surrounding you as did this woman finally:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFVt8yLuyUs&feature=player_embedded#
Disingenous? Certainly my comment pled only for the opposite. Perhaps you should stop looking in the mirror when you reply. Instead it was with true concern for the public unable to clearly be represented – those unable to catch the obfuscated intentions of such a monstrosity in so limited a time due to a truly “disingenuously” created “crisis”. Have you no compassion for those who need more time to be helped in understanding what will be theirs to bear if this abomination is passed … in any way? But then those who can justify laws to take life, not save it, have long ago lost any such compassion – led by one who won’t help grandma once she’s past some arbitrary age for contribution or who would not stop at the horror of “medical procedures” ending life, but would then leave to die the most vulnerable, in the filthiest of conditions…and this even within the walls of a hospital if they fought and survived such “procedures”. You are led by the least compassionate of all – your pied piper who is the MOST disingenous of all … and that’s being generous. What a sick crowd that holds such power today.
siseduermapierda says:
“The problem for most of you is this is the first time in your lives you ever paid attention to a bill in the Congress and you never watched the process before.”
You are right. We have also never had a president and Congress so willing to run us into the ground so fast before either…
The Republicans offered their own version of a health care plan – only 244 or so pages, that had no fluff, adressed only the issues at hand, and did not grant any favoars for anyone (pork). We were also shut out of any closed door meetings while the final changes were made. So much for trying to be bi-partisan. I don’t believe for a minute that the Dems have ever wanted to include us in anything. They just want to push their long awaited agenda through at all costs. BTW, why didn’t the House bill require Congress to have and use the same health plan the rest of us are being forced to??? Because it is crap, that’s why!
Observer says:
November 10, 2009 at 11:57 am
*A glance without digestion (and ability to have serious and rightful questions answered) is nothing to be proud of nor to be promoted *
Utterly disingenuous. The debate on Health Care ( this round) has been going on for 11 months. HR3962 was a composite of the three House bills that had already passed out of committee. Not even your Republican friends in Congress tried to make the argument no one had a chance to read, digest, cross-reference or whatever to the bill. By making such arguments, you demonstrate your ignorance of the procedures by which ALL legislation is developed and passed in this country. The problem for most of you is this is the first time in your lives you ever paid attention to a bill in the Congress and you never watched the process before.
Anyone who wanted to read the bill had a chance to do so.
Anyone??? A glance without digestion (and ability to have serious and rightful questions answered) is nothing to be proud of nor to be promoted … but then those on record here who praise the shell game approach to “forming” law while casually allowing the still forced influence of baby killing by the millions as well as state sanctioned euthanasia by the politically influential eugenics foundations is nothing less than assisting pure evil and changing the very foundations of our great country that are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The glibness here is unbelievable in its lack of consideration of the tremendous danger to these freedoms in this untimely as well as recklessly formed bill. Such powers permitted would order every area of our lives, all the while deliberately wrecking the private sector – the only sector that can create long lasting employment. Only such creative employment can function as the foundation for taking care of the truly poor and vulnerable. Once it is completely dismantled, by intention of the state, there will be only a lowest common denominator quality of life – one that is witnessed throughout history in such completely controlled socialistic states so admired by the current leader. And those on record here in defending this deliberate takeover and destruction by those who themselves believe that they will be well provided for in their self designed protections, are the real tin foil fools who actually believe that there is even a “crisis” to begin with. The real crisis is being artificially manufactured by forcing even heavier burdens upon those already out of work or those struggling to keep their heads above water since these “solutions” have been put into motion in just the past few months. Any ability by the private sector (which we already are witnessing) to help themselves is deliberately being dismantled by more legislation and regulations to make the state hold the power and the creative and compassionate citizenry bankrupted. Congratulations on your chosen side of this history in the making. If this bill isn’t killed the health of the entire nation in all areas will be on a type of life support that itself will be controlled by the “let it die” crowd.
The right wingers are on the sidelines hoping and praying that something keeps the Democratic majority from passing this legislation.
The problem for y’all is that Democrats understand the need to pass this legislation, and they are unlikely to stop short of a compromise.
I predict that the Senate will pass a bill that includes a trigger for a public option, somewhat different ways to pay for the bill, and with language like the Stupak amendment. This bill will have up to five GOP Senators supporting it, but at least one.
The bills will be reconciled and the anti-abortion parts will be altered somewhat, but reform will pass.
Texas-Ben says:
November 10, 2009 at 3:05 am
*when no one has even seen the bill*
HR3962 had been available at House.gov as a pdf since Oct 30. The changes after were reflected in the 42 page Manager’s amendment issued Nov 3. The only changes after that were the two amendments added Saturday. To say “no one ever saw it” is totally disingenuous. There was a full copy, bound in yellow nylon rope used as a GOP prop on the dais at the Bachmann press conference on the Capitol steps on Nov 5:
http://media.thestate.com/smedia/2009/11/05/13/409-202Congress_Health_Care.sff.standalone.prod_affiliate.74.jpg
Anyone who wanted to read the bill had a chance to do so.
This is what you get when you over-reach, a bill that will not be passed if offered in exactly the same language later. Pelosi got it pushed through the first time but just the abortion language alone may derail it upon return from the Senate. I highly doubt a public option will be included in the Senate version so what happens in reconcilliation and will that pass either the House or the Senate? Then there is the issue of where the tax revenue will be found as both fund it from different sources.
I’d bet the Democrats will not be able to find a version that can get through both the House (again) and the Senate (if a first version even gets passed). What a mess.
That’s what happens when you pass legislation at midnight when no one has even seen the bill. What exactly was the rush? The Senate probably won’t make it this year so what was the rush? What a mess.